Re: Mass nonbasic hate in standard and pioneer pretty please with a cherry on topI have read the threads from my previous questions, and I now understand why most of the extreme nonbasic hate cards, stuff like blood moon, back to basics, or ruination, can feel oppressive against decks with 2 or even 1 color, which is obviously not the goal of such cards. I do want to ask now, as question of curiosity more than a specific request: what kinds of things make hate cards go too far? Whether it be blood moon or rest in peace or engineered plague; at what point does a hate piece cause too much collateral damage (like blood moon), or at what point is the punishment so severe that it can fully lock some decks out of the game (like Rest in Peace). Where is the sweet spot, how do you know you’ve found it, and what kinds of knobs do you turn to help get there? I know that’s way more than one question and might be better suited as an article, but I’d still be fascinated to hear about it.

It’s just yet another reason why play balance is so difficult. Not enough and it’s not effective. Too much and it has impacts you don’t want. Mostly it’s a lot of trial and error in playtesting, and then some finger crossing.

You said a while back that it’s hard to make nonbasic hate that punishes greedy decks without also punishing fairer ones. Why? Blood moon or ruination seem like they are inherently fair. The degree they hurt people is directly proportional to how greedy their land base is. If ruination is too extreme for your taste, from the ashes is an even less punishing card, effectively just being a mass field of ruin. How are these cards too punishing to fair land bases?

I’m not sure everyone would agree that Blood Moon is “fair”.

@ ulgrotha planeswalker: Something unique, I think, would be the dead zone - perhaps some kind of walker who's been studying that mana void and has learned to sort of replicate its effects; disrupting mana channels/leylines to perform a feat similar to eldrazi ruination, literally stripping the mana from the land and even its inhabitants. Could be a black or colorless walker with some kind of exile effect, maybe a land destruction ult, and an ability to increase mana costs?

You were missing my point. Tamiyo is clearly from Kamigawa because she visually represents something unique from the plane. What is that for Ulgrotha?